And I also found another letter from Therese to Josephine. Who, among the scores of women that Beethoven seduced, was his Immortal Beloved? To be more exact, Beethoven in fact wrote to 'The immortal loved one' and not 'The Immortal Beloved'. function init() { We shall probably soon meet, even today I cannot communicate my remarks to you, which during these days I made about my life — were our hearts close together, I should probably not make any such remarks. This Immortal Beloved letter by Beethoven is dated Monday July 6th. This question has obsessed people for almost 200 years. We can listen to this love in the vibrant bliss, of so many passionate adagios, in the sorrow present in those painful tones, in so many melodies loaded with sadness and memories. In these letters, Beethoven uses the informal, familiar 'you' to address his (Immortal Beloved. It's believed that Beethoven had a surprise encounter with his Immortal Beloved in Prague on July 3rd, 1812, just three days before the 'Immortal Beloved' letter is written. The story of Beethoven's life, mostly his private life in this case, is told in flashbacks as his friend and executor of his will, Anton Schindler (Jeroen Krabbe) sets out to find the mysterious Immortal Beloved, the recipient of a passionate love letter written by the composer. Before, he did not live in Vienna, and he states the fact that he lives there in his letter. That is why the American hypothesis about the Immortal Beloved letter is completely unacceptable, absolutely psychologically unlikely. Third Question: Of which towns does he speak of in the my Immortal Beloved letters? You presented some interesting similarities between letters known to be written by Beethoven to Josephine and the 'Immortal Beloved' letter. Experts have a collection of letters written by Beethoven, that was undelivered having the subject – “To The Immortal Beloved”. MALTZ: Let's get to the evidence you discovered. Whom did Beethoven love so passionately? So who knows? Letter with the subject – Immortal Beloved. MALTZ: So let's move forward. And so you have these letters that turned up, and the language is very close to what Beethoven used in the letter to the Immortal Beloved – calls her, my angel, my all. He never sent this letter. Why? The echoes of this love are listened along the years, in so much of his musical works. So, the marriage took place in Gran, Esztergom, Hungary in February of 1810. And so they were looking for a woman whose first name started with 'A.' IMMORTAL BELOVED Beethoven’s Love Letters On This Page The Immortal Beloved Letters The Early Candidates for the Immortal Beloved The Later Candidates Recent Theories Letters to Unknown Women Once upon a time in old Vienna, the great composer Ludwig von Beethoven passed away quietly at his home. And, Therese, in her memoirs talks about Minona as being different from the other children, being very stark, strong in her personality so much that we called her ‘the governess.’. And this was La Mara. And so that's where it remained. And there's some other passages in his diary where around the birth of Minona where he says, ‘Oh, I will have to leave Vienna.’. He is referring to Vienna (in German, the initial is a 'W' for 'Wien') and no one has found a reason to dispute this. It is as if by knowing what kind of woman loved him and was loved by him, some part of the mystery of his enormous spirit would be finally revealed to us. And this money was now due, and Stackelberg had left Josephine. What do we know about Josephine and why would Beethoven have been so enraptured by her? Their love letters have a lot in common with the famous letter, and she was a very beautiful, cultured, musical young woman. It is possible that the relation between them was ultimately impossible for the restrictions that the time put on such situations, and then the relation had receded to a spiritual level. This treat has a thin base of chocolate sponge cake and a chocolate mousse filling. And, of course, what would happen to the bones? It is like looking once again in the wrong place. MALTZ: Which of course, very similar to the 'Immortal Beloved' letter in the way that Beethoven says you're hiding yourself. Its content is sugar sweet, the recipient unknown: "Love demands everything. Immortal Beloved. So it was just made up by Schindler. To view past editions, visit the Newsletter page. It is equally curious to see how the theorists are split into two clearly visible groups in their proposition of my Immortal Beloved: the English and the Americans, more in favor of Antonie Brentano, and the Germans, French and other Europeans, more in favor of Joséphine von Brunsvik. Where I am, you are with me, with me and you, I shall arrange that I may live with you. These were requirements that Beethoven himself “joked” about on some occasion. Fourth Question: What can we deduce from this familiar tone? And just recently the business manager of the Beethoven House in Bonn, Malte Böcker, wanted to have all of my correspondence with this Gesundheitsamt because, in the end, it was sort of like… well, who's going to pay for this? Be calm — love me — today — yesterday. After Beethoven's death in 1827, a three-part letter was found among his private papers addressed to a woman whom he called "immortal beloved". The mystery during the years has been who the “Immortal beloved” is. MALTZ: So this speaks to Josephine's magnetic appeal. window.onload=init; Preliminaries: It is considered that three letters exist, even though the whole is entitled 'The letter to the Immortal Beloved'. . This letter was found in Beethoven's estate along with the Heiligenstadt Testament, and it ended up in Schindler's possession. And Josephine wanted to go again to Karlsbad. What I am bringing out now are the 108 marriage letters between Deym and Josephine and they're very erotic and they show that it was really a loving marriage, not like what you read in Therese's memoirs. My guest is Dr. Rita Steblin, a musicologist whose archival work combines music history, iconography, and genealogical research. I like to look at old problems from a new angle as I said, well… ‘Auf diese Art mit 'A' geht alles zu Grunde.” Why, why should the letter 'A' refer to the woman? In the end, he does not commit suicide (just as well for the sake of music), but he keeps this call of distress for 25 years, until his death, with the letter for his Immortal Beloved…. The proposed possibilities as to the identity of this mystery woman are numerous, indeed too numerous for one man! Where is this town, noted as K., found when Beethoven explains: "... the only days when the post leaves for K..."? As baptisms customarily took place the day following birth consensus is that the world’s greatest composer was born December 16, 1770. But, through dedication, Dr. Steblin finally solved this mystery. MALTZ: And it sends people down the wrong track for hundreds of years. And this is dated 1818. Welcome to Classical Cake, the podcast where we discuss topics relating to Viennese classical music while enjoying one of Vienna's delicious cakes. Finding the answer required cross-referencing 200-year-old letters, diaries, memoirs, as well as other documents to find clues. First of all, there are the memoirs of her oldest son, Fritz, who he started writing when he was 20 years old to his 15-year-old bride. And he talks about how they had a wonderful summer 1816 in Baden and, Marie-Elisabeth Tellenbach had already found in the spa lists, Josephine's entry later that summer. I think she had this attraction. . STEBLIN: Yes. Though still in bed, my thoughts go out to you, my Immortal Beloved, now and then joyfully, then sadly, waiting to learn whether or not fate will hear us - I can live only wholly with you or not at all - Yes, I am resolved to wander so long away from you until I can fly to your arms and say that I am really at home with you, and can send my soul enwrapped in you into the land of spirits - Yes, unhappily it must be … Was it returned? Angel, I just hear that the post goes out every day — and must close therefore, so that you get the L. at once. This question is taken further by Heiligenstadt's theory: we are in the presence of a desperate man, who is writing his final testament, he thinks, to put an end to his days. STEBLIN: This was about the time when Stackelberg brought his three daughters, including this Minona, back to Vienna and Therese says Minona was six years old. But because Beethoven couldn't lay claim to his own child, he then took over this nephew. Beethoven’s missives to this “immortal beloved,” which include the only known love letter of his to use the informal German du for “you” rather than the formal Sie, were found among his personal effects; they were never mailed — a beautiful and tragic testament to the fact that their affair, like all affairs, was both bedeviled and vitalized by the awareness that the two lovers could never fully … Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827) was a German composer and pianist, who is arguably the defining figure in the history of Western music. This biography of Ludwig von Beethoven (Gary Oldman) builds its narrative around an actual letter found after his death, addressed only to the composer's "immortal beloved." Dr. Steblin, I would like to thank you personally for your research. } The life and death of the legendary Ludwig van Beethoven. The possible years are therefore: 1795, 1801, 1807, 1812 or 1818. And so it's exactly at that point that he lays claim to his nephew, even though Karl's father was still alive and wouldn't die for another few years. Well… because 'St' is kind of unusual and 'A' is much more common. 8:19. The problem person would be her husband, that he's the one that's causing all the problems for Beethoven. Ludwig von Beethoven – July 6, 1806 Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827), one of history’s most famous and mysterious composers died at the age of 57 with one great secret. so far! Was it 1819 or 1820, I believe… where somebody writes to Beethoven about this musical child. I should say, had been hiding under an assumed name, Meiersfeld, but it was a hyphenated Deym-Meiersfeld. . So, in 1808, Josephine, Therese, and the two little boys, Fritz and Karl went on a long journey and ended up in Switzerland. Ludwig van Beethoven remained celibate for all of his life. for (i = 0; i < document.links.length;i++) { After his death in 1827, the following love letter was found amongst the personal papers of Ludwig van Beethoven, penned by the composer over the course of two days in July of 1812 while staying in Teplice. So, he was with them for this whole time, but Josephine's mother was looking for a husband for her daughters and the older one, Therese, well, she sort of had a bit of a crooked back and wasn't that attractive. And so what did she have to do but try to fix her marriage and, I think from the memoirs of her son, Fritz, you see what efforts she went to to be the loving wife. And what I've been doing recently is watching all these YouTube stories. In it, he writes of his unconditional love and devotion to someone he refers to as his Unsterbliche Geliebte, or Immortal Beloved.He never sent this letter. This kind of spiritual link was mentioned in a mysterious letter written by Josephine in 1818 to equally mysterious recipient. Our guest, musicologist Dr. Rita Steblin, finally identifies the correct woman. MALTZ: We're skipping forward now, there was another cryptic comment that has stumped Beethoven researchers for years. And all the people, all these scholars in the States and in England and Germany who claim that Josephine cannot be the Immortal Beloved. } My bosom is full, to tell you much — there are moments when I find that speech is nothing at all. Oh, God, look into beautiful Nature and compose your mind to the inevitable. Besides clearly stating that there was not a happy ending to this affair, many researchers also said that if the Immortal Beloved were Josephine, that the diary entry would have to read, “In this manner with J, everything goes to ruin.” In fact, there's been a lot of confusion surrounding this initial A. STEBLIN: Beethoven wrote this entry in a diary that he started in the fall of 1812. STEBLIN: Josephine came to Vienna in May of 1799 with her mother and her older sister Therese, to have piano lessons with Beethoven. She was in her eighties in 1920 when she brought out the book. And, because there's a mystery behind it, people wanted to solve the mystery and each generation has had a go at it. Before, he did not live in Vienna, and he states the fact that he lives there in his letter. Well, we know that Beethoven knew Josephine since 1799 so five years before would disqualify her. Oh, go on loving me — never doubt the faithfullest heart Of your belovedL Ever thine.Ever mine.Ever ours. STEBLIN: Well, she does admit that she was at some distance and was trying to listen in onto this conversation. It is, in Beethoven’s own words, to his “immortal beloved”. And so when the letter to the Immortal Beloved, dated July 6th only mentions the trip between Prague and Teplitz where Beethoven was writing this letter. But, I decided to look at the problem again from a new angle and to look at that word kennen and thought, okay, if you view it in the biblical sense of to know a woman, sleep with her. Updated March 17, 2017 Beethoven's love letter is very famous and often quoted in literary media as well as television, movies, and commercials. Beethoven "Immortal Beloved" Letters/"Emperor" 2nd Movement - Duration: 8:19. Melodious Heart 15,993 views. What a life! The entire letter is written on 10 small pages, in Beethoven's rather inconsistent handwriting. DANIEL ADAM MALTZ: Grüß Sie from Vienna, Austria. Beethoven still has them waiting and hoping in vain to be able to open his secrets. You will get over it all the more as you know my faithfulness to you; never another one can own my heart, never — never! Beethoven proves that art offers something beyond the physical or the material world. The first is easy: "... my life in W. is now a miserable life...". Immortal is described by the author as “a novel inspired by real events”. Numerous therefore propose it to be Karlsbad (more than 120 kilometers West of Prague, and a 100 or so kilometers from Teplitz). It also required challenging previously-accepted scholarship and approaching the subject from new angles to find the truth. Beethoven very rarely used 'du' and to use 'du' with a woman…. Let God return peace to your soul and so that you can return to your children and your family. Get all my new content in one monthly email newsletter. I mean, because her solution was never taken seriously. STEBLIN: When I was a piano teacher in Vancouver for seven years, I read the book by Marie-Elisabeth Tellenbach on Josephine Brunsvik as the Immortal Beloved. Also, I am intrigued by the fact that this letter was found in Beethoven's possession. The letter’s unnamed recipient — Beethoven’s “Immortal Beloved” — remains a mystery, and continues to generate debate. So what other woman meets that? And we know that Beethoven met unexpectedly someone in Prague because in a letter later to Varnhagen von Ense, he apologizes for not having kept an appointment that he had made on the evening of July the 3rd. Without you — pursued by the kindness of the people here and there, whom I mean — to desire to earn just as little as they earn — humility of man towards men — it pains me — and when I regard myself in connection with the Universe, what I am, and what he is — whom one calls the greatest — and yet — there lies herein again the godlike of man. So Josephine was left alone and there were great financial problems. STEBLIN: Well, I mean, what a scandal. [I] had gotten to know,’ he used the word kennen, ‘gotten to know a woman.’. This date is the one most widely accepted today. And these DNA studies… well, if 50% of Minona's bones come from Estonia, well then Stackelberg is the father, but if 50% come from Bonn, well then that would prove it. Beside all the work he is known for, the composer once wrote a famous love letter to a nameless beloved and the movie tries to find out who this beloved was. So Josephine was very charming, very beautiful. Can our love persist otherwise than through sacrifices, than by not demanding everything? And then other people told me it's not possible to determine fatherhood from such old bones but, Malte Böcker, the business head at the Beethoven House in Bonn, wrote me just recently an email saying, ‘I'd like to let you know that I have secured Minona's gravesite and nothing will happen to her bones.’. What abominable waste of time in such things — why this deep grief, where necessity speaks? Is it not a real building of heaven, our Love — but as firm, too, as the citadel of heaven. Who is this Immortal Beloved? Solve the long-disputed mystery of Beethoven’s Immortal Beloved, Unearth details of this woman’s life and her irresistible charm, Understand why Beethoven never sent the letter, Be shocked by the surprising end result of this romance. Beethoven is buried there as well, of course. The identity of Beethoven’s “Immortal Beloved” (more accurately translated as “Eternally Beloved”) has confounded historians for two centuries and even inspired a movie. And then working on her papers in Jindrichuv Hradec, I found some diaries, not really chronological, but some of the entries are June 1812 and one of the entries says, ‘I want to speak to Liebert in Prague.’ And we also know from her sister Therese's memoirs that Josephine had made a plan for 1812. They'd be gone forever. Beethoven: Piano Concerto No. And I discovered that Josephine got pregnant and her fifth child was illegitimate, Maria Laura. She was now running this museum and he continued to give her lessons. Many times it's fostered a heated debate. . She was the dedicatee of the Moonlight Sonata. Whether seducing regal followers or criticizing the ruling class, Beethoven made many enemies. There is more than a hint of voyeurism in the acute desire to “know”. STEBLIN: Yes. The Immortal Beloved (German "Unsterbliche Geliebte") is the addressee of a love letter which composer Ludwig van Beethoven wrote on 6–7 July 1812 in Teplitz. Now, we have proof that Josephine was in Baden for weeks. And remaining frustrated. Written by Smoothhoney1265 Plot Summary | Plot Synopsis MALTZ: And so you, in doing your research into this theory, found examples in Beethoven's hand where he writes both an 'A' and an 'St' – in Beethoven's hand – so that we have definitive proof. And your research sheds light on a side of Beethoven that is quite opposite to the fiery personality we often think of – a Beethoven who wanted to love and be loved. STEBLIN: Well, the letter itself is one of the most passionate letters that anyone has ever written and certainly the most passionate by a composer. This letter is one of the most famous documents in the legacy of the great German composer Ludwig van Beethoven (1770–1827). Letter to the Immortal Beloved, 1812 So it is with you, you with me." He says, and don't hide yourself from me. Besides all the work he is known for, the composer once wrote a famous love letter to a nameless beloved, and the movie tries to find out who this beloved was--not easy, as Beethoven has had many women in his life. All rights reserved. And, because of this letter that looked like 'A', in the first copy… because Beethoven's diary is actually missing and we only have two copies. In Beethoven's estate there is a letter that allows science and art to be speculated. This obsession was evident in the way –after his death-- his body was studied, in a most meticulous autopsy. The letters were discovered after Beethoven's death and ever since their discovery, there has been speculation regarding whom that Immortal Beloved might have been. Therefore, he met Goethe some days later. Anyway, I believe that the question about WHY so much ink has been used in writing about the identity of the woman Beethoven loved can have an answer. Don't let him into your house. And I think that was to declare his paternity, but instead he didn't want to cause a scandal for Josephine. Beethoven's love letters to his immortal beloved, 1812 L udwig van Beethoven (1770-1827) was a German composer and pianist. And he said, ‘Don't worry, your children are my children.’. But, she was already in her eighties and died soon after. Art is something related to the soul, to the Sacred, to the Divine. He would loathe such a treasonous act. I mean, DNA studies are improving. He HAD loved her before, so he might have loved her still in 1812. Why has the Beethoven Immortal Beloved letter captured imaginations? Your love made me the happiest and unhappiest at the same time. Nothing of this would be worth of him, nor of the marvelous treasure he has left behind for us all. This Immortal Beloved letter by Beethoven is dated Monday July 6th. In Baden for weeks it not a real building of heaven give her lessons a woman… you... 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