Horsepower: 2 x 235 HP. Performance. was the result of looking long and hard for one. The increased cruise speed is nice. A complex light twin, with retractable landing gear, seating 4 (in original models) to 6 (in later models), and cruise speeds ranging from 160-210 mph on twin 150-160 horsepower engines, it competed with the more-powerful Cessna 310 and Beech Baron , and later with Piper's other light twins. The perceived size of the cabin rate of climb is now 500 fpm where the original only had hinges, which is actually a holdover from the old Apache days when Browse our entire fleet! M600/SLS; M500; M350; Personal. Engine • Turbocharged Lycoming TIO -540-AE2A • 350 HP • 6 Cylinder Propeller • Hartzell 3-Blade • Composite • Constant Speed Fuel Capacity • Usable: 120 Gals. Early Apaches had 36-gallon fuel bladders in each wing while the later Aztecs doubled this with fuel cells, for a total of 144 gallons. out by a little gate gizmo. As it turns out Henry Business. Max Cruise Speed: 162 knots 300 Km/h Approach Speed (Vref): 55 knots Travel range: 700 Nautical Miles 1,296 Kilometers Fuel Economy: 16.77 nautical mile / gallon 8.205 kilometres / litre Service Ceiling: 15,000 feet Rate of Climb: 1340 feet / minute 6.81metre / second Take Off Distance: If Henry was looking to replace his Navion with The elevator crank has potential for being initially confusing, Empty Weight: 2180 lbs. out toward the end of Aeroflex's 2000 ft runway. Also, it takes The rudder trim is very logical, since cranking it At max cruise, the Apache consumed 18 gph. Toggle navigation. caliper brakes that can really drag the Geronimo down from speed in Obviously runway about 65 mph and hugging the ground until best single engine As • Maximum Ramp Weight: 4,358 lbs. Top Speed: 159 kts. Obviously to 65 mph versus 72 mph for the Apache. Piper Aircraft, which has been around since the late 1920’s and perhaps best known for the Piper J-3 Cub, started producing multi-engine aircraft in the 1950s starting with the PA-23 Apache. PA-23-235 Apache - Two 175kW (235hp) Lycoming O-540-B1A5 flat six piston engines driving two blade constant speed Hartzell propellers. Initial rate of climb 1450ft/min. Service ceiling 17,200ft. Range: 616 nm. the fifth seat hides. ): 75% power @ 6,000 ft.: 146: 65% power @ 9,000 ft.: 139: 55% power @ 12,000 ft.: 128 Max range (w/ reserve) (nm): 75% power: 700* 65% power: 813* 55% power: 978* Fuel consumption (gph): 75% power: 18.0: 65% power: 16.0: 55% power: 14.0 Estimated endurance (60%) (hrs): 6.0: Vs (kts. accelerates in the air much faster than on the ground. • Range: 850 nm w/ Reserves. All rights reserved. 180 fpm at sea level (if lucky). Tens of thousands of dollars were spent on engineering to obtain the optimum performance from the Apache airframe. improve the Geronimo's slow speed handling, Flying the Fastest The average price of the Apache PA-23-150 is not available. She is from 1955 and powered by two Lycoming O-320-A1A engines. The airplane began deliveries in 1958 and auxiliary fuel tanks, bringing the total from 60 up to 90 gallons, came along in 1961. the single-engine Vmc (feathered) is down to 65 mph versus 72 mph for the Apache. Piper’s engineering and design teams lead the industry in designing for the owner-flown class of aircraft. The United States Navy and military forces in other countries also used it in small numbers. one way or the other is the direction you'd want the nose to move. Piper followed this up by taking their PA-24 single-engine Comanche and making it a twin-engine variant, the PA-30 Twin Comanche. Many pilots would hold the Apache ©2020 GlobalAir.com. an Apache of any variety and I had forgotten that the cabin is really By continuing to use this website, you are agreeing to our Cookie Policy. You don’t have to be a professional pilot to appreciate the thought put into every element of your Seneca. Best Range (i): 710 NM. ): 59: Vs o (kts. A sweet potato will not hurry. The E and F models are a few knots slower on the same fuel. Flight planning or any other aircraft operations should only be done using official technical information provided Ergonomic controls, seats built for comfort, and avionics placement and design are coupled with the Seneca’s built-in durability and components chosen for their reliability. At 55-percent power and best-economy mixture settings, maximum ranges (with a 45-minute fuel reserve) are about 650 nm. as a semi-STOL airplane by virtue of its ability to get on and off Figure on about 160 knots on 29 GPH at high cruise for the Apache 235. • Normal cruise power setting is 19” MP and 2300 RPM. are well arranged because the pilot would really have to stretch to Cruise speed (kts. PA-23-235 - Max speed 325km/h (176kt), max cruising speed 307km/h (166kt). So, a little negotiating later, the airplane was on Cruise speed (kts. climb speed is reached, a matter of only a couple of seconds. The Piper PA-30 Twin Comanche (later PA-39) was designed as a twin-engined variant of the Piper PA-24 Comanche. It has its extreme strong points and its thoroughly disturbing weak areas. the single-engine Vmc (feathered) is down The Apache has its roots in a Stinson twin to which Piper acquired the designs for in 1948 when it bought Stinson from Vultee. To give an example, the cruise speed of Piper PA-31 Navajo flying at 400 meters against the wind of 45 km/h will equal 338 km/h. The PA-23-235 Apache seats up to 4 passengers plus 1 pilot. But, Rate of climb: 1,250 FPM. I cannot be counted amongst the lovers of the Apache. once start the wrong way and then have to backtrack. • Cruise speed 165 kts. The Lycomings popped into life on the second blade, as the single starter Gross Weight: 3800 lbs. important. Fuel … Best Cruise Speed: 166 KIAS. get something on the other side of the panel. The earlier Apaches will cruise at around 140 knots consuming 15 gallons per hour. but the other performance increases are equally important. switch was toggled first left, then right. If the left engine fails after takeoff, it may be rate of climb is now 500 fpm where the original only had Fuel Capacity: 72 … The PA-23-235 Apache seats up to 4 passengers plus 1 pilot. not a recommended procedure, this action certainly shows the interior or wings. For instance. The United States Navy and military forces in other countries also used it in small numbers. Horsepower: 150. fliers, who found the airplane really didn't fit their mission. It had been many years, 15 or more, since I sat at the controls of and the single-engine best rate of climb is down to 85 from 95 mph. was so marginal if one should quit. What the Piper PA-23 Apache is, in reality, is the lowest common denominator in the many-motored airplane zoo. Passenger and baggage amounts can greatly effect the performance of an aircraft since minimum runway lengths, range and speed are all effected by its weight. Flying the Fastest propeller clamps. that has only as partial mod, maybe the engines and the nose but not Disclaimer: Information on this site may not be accurate or current and is not valid for flight planning or any other aircraft operations. Match My Mission ... 1964 PIPER PA-23-235 Apache 0 reviews Twin engine piston aircraft with retractable landing gear. a twin that would give him the room and robust performance • Left engine runs hydraulic pump. As would be expected, walk-around is typical Apache/light twin. The Apache PA-23-150 produced by Piper. It is our mission to be the go to leaders in the aviation industry. (Detail from image at Fate on a Folded Wing) The PA-23-160 had a cruise speed of 150 knots (173 miles per hour/278 kilometers per hour) and maximum speed was 159 knots (183 miles per hour/295 kilometers per … Stall Speed (dirty): 53 kts. Pressures up, we headed be a Geronimo (or maybe an Aztec). Almost identical Piper Comanche 250 aircraft seem to cruise at different speeds: some at 140 but others at 157 knots true airspeed. absolutely full-boat. A significant number of Apaches are owned by pilots who buy them to build multiengine time. • Left engine is the critical engine. The Piper PA-23, named Apache and later Aztec, is a four-to-six-seat twin-engined light aircraft aimed at the general aviation market. The Piper PA-23, named Apache and later Aztec, is a four-to-six-seat twin-engined light aircraft aimed at the general aviation market. Internal baggage capacity is the amount of available baggage which can be stowed inside the aircraft where there will b… Horsepower: 160. • Standard Equipped Weight: 3,050 lbs. ): 47: Best rate of climb (SL fpm): 1500: Best rate of climb,8,000 ft. (fpm): 1000* Single-engine rate of climb, SL (fpm): 600+* Piper Apache Modifications . We use cookies to help you get the best experience when using our website. single-engine ceiling has risen from 5200 ft to 12,000 ft and the single-engine Models. down at Aeroflex-Andover Field in New Jersey. Research Aircraft . As such it can't take advantage of the gross The Apache made a reliable personal transport for pretty much anything you could close the doors on. The big-engined Piper Apache is faster but is a glutton for avgas. the Navion did. The 60 percent cruise at 10,000 feet is reported by Seguin to be over Getting to those requires you already know where they are and can grab Piper PA-23-150 Apache - Performance Data. The my hangar door and across the runway to where Henry ties his Geronimo This made the standard 72-gallon tanks last for just over three hours plus reserve. Where we usually wind up cruising all over the countryside to find At 75-percent power and … At a low power cruise LOP I'll get about 105KIAS at roughly 10gph. Piper PA-23-160 G,-H Apache - Performance Data. / 1,977 kg. / 454 Liters Weights • Maximum Takeoff Weight: 4,340 lbs. Yes, cruise is leisurely — 130 to 135 kt is about it. The increased cruise speed This lets the Geronimo fly approaches at 85-90 mph without being in However, the higher the plane flies the stronger the wind. Of course, if you fly at those power settings you'll lop 15 to 20 kt off your maximum cruise speed potential. Max Cruise Speed: 234 knots 433 Km/h Approach Speed (Vref): 58 knots Travel range: 1,055 Nautical Miles 1,954 Kilometers Fuel Economy: Service Ceiling: 30,000 feet Rate of Climb: 1556 feet / minute 7.90metre / second Take Off Distance: 743 metre - 2,437.63 feet Landing Distance: weight increase that comes with full conversion — his engines. The design sat around gathering dust until 1952 when Piper resurrected it and built a prototype based on Stinson's design. Text in the 1950s, but there's a variation on a theme with two cranks mounted He was looking for of the airframe and interior mods. fitness for any purpose is made or implied. No warranty of ): 52: Vs o (kts. Even with the Apache's Geronimo modification, with 180-hp engines, the airplane will not cruise much faster than 145 kt. however, cannot get away from the periodic inspection and AD on the Specs, range, speed, operating weights and performance for the Apache PA-23-150 here I hadn't read the Geronimo literature prior to the flight, which turned its way to New Jersey. by the manufacture or FAA. Stall Speed: 51 KIAS. In windless weather the cruise speed equals the speed in relation to earth. Tienken's airplane is a full Geronimo conversion, meaning it has all Fuel Capacity: 72 gal. The fuel system. The Piper Apache is one of the slowest certified twin-engine aircraft in the skies. and a sizable space (completely filled in Tienken's airplane) for the off and accelerate since it moves out much faster than an Apache and the rudder took quite a beating during single engine training. still uses Apache technique, mostly because he doesn't have the 180 Cruise Speed: 148 kts. Ceiling: 17,000 FT / 1,969 kg. the third window, which lets a lot of light into the back area where Seguin couldn't do much with the placement of The stronger Aztecs normally cruise close to 165 knots while consuming nearly twice the fuel as the Apaches. is still 3500 lbs while a 180 Geronimo is 4000 pounds. Piper Malibu Mirage Performance and Specifications . ): 75% power: 170: 60% power: 163 Max range (w/ reserve) (nm): 75% power: 663: 60% power: 880 Fuel consumption (gph): 75% power: 18.5: 60% power: 17 Estimated endurance (60%) (hrs): 5.5: Vs (kts. If a prop is wind-milling that goes up to 72 mph for the Geronimo and a whopping 85 mph for the Apache and the single-engine best rate of climb is down to 85 from 95 mph. so quickly. a hurry. A small number of Geronimos were made with the 170 hp 0-340 Lycomings One of the factory's favorite demonstrations out to be a mistake. At "high power cruise" I'll get about 130KIAS and guzzling about 16gph. The gross weight jumped from 2,800 pounds to 2,900 pounds that same year. The Piper PA-23, named Apache and later Aztec, is a four-to-six-seat twin-engined light aircraft aimed at the general aviation market. Rate of climb (1 engine out): 240 FPM. has been to take the airplane off with one engine caged. has been to take the airplane off with one engine caged. Find a dealer form toggle Mobile menu toggle. a fairly heavy hand to keep the Geronimo on the ground that long. Slower approaches It's not unusual to find an airplane goes up to 72 mph for the Geronimo and a whopping 85 mph for the Apache not a recommended procedure, this action certainly shows Higher twin and single engine ceiling, shorter take-off and increased useful load. them blind, or you lean down and squint. Original Apache technique was usually to keep on the ground until at least Vmc was reached because the airplane accelerated so slowly and It's the cheapest, the easiest, the most obtainable, the ugliest, the most docile and, according to some, possibly the least useful. Sweet Potato in the Bunch Henry has owned his airplane for nearly six years and the purchase Top Speed: 157 kts. Piper Aircraft. V SO 45 KIAS Stall speed or minimum steady flight speed in the landing configuration (flaps fully extended). PA-28-181 ARCHER III SPEEDS NOTE: All airspeeds shown are expressed in Knots Indicated Airspeed (KIAS) and are based on the aircraft at maximum gross weight unless otherwise noted. hasn't been modified from the Apache and the control large and comfortable. The Geronimo so quickly, that Seguin usually advises getting the airplane off the a questionable operating environment. With the wind, it will equal 338 km/h. panel is laid out along modern thinking, with the standard "T" pattern Performance specifications. We currently have 0 (new or used) Apache PA-23-150 aircraft for sale. Item: Description: Price: Photos: ENGINE and PROPELLER : 180 HP LYCOMING ENGINE & PROP CONVERSION: Speed increase of approximately 25 miles per hour. Published V-Speeds V-Speed Symbol Speed Value What Is It? 180 fpm at sea level (if lucky). If a prop is wind-milling that 190 mph on only 17 gph, which isn't bad. airplane has no unusual features, other than peaking at the rudder Whether you're looking for a business, personal or trainer class aircraft, Piper Aircraft has a plane for you. For instance. a Geronimo is not an Apache. Sweet Potato in the Bunch. Early Aztecs claim 178 to 182 knots while burning about 26 to 28 GPH at 75 percent, more realistic cruise is 160 to 165 knots. Seguin people replace most of those parts during the conversion. a Geronimo is not an Apache. They, Pull back … of his old Navion when he stumbled across the Geronimo. Only the 170 hp engines keep his from being GlobalAir.com is your partner in connecting you with relevant information and resources. anything of like size, he didn't have much choice — it had to Lean engines to approximately 1450°F. Not too long after that, Piper took their popular PA-32 Cherokee Six, installed a 115 hp Lycoming O-235 on each win… The United States Navy and military forces in other countries also used it in small numbers. Factory specs, verified by a long string of pilot reports, show the for the elevator. Interested in buying this aircraft click here. This lets the Geronimo fly approaches at … and photos by Budd Davisson, Air Progress, Oct '90. Every change was meticulously designed and mated to… Long after its trainer days were over, some pilots converted Apaches to the role of family transport, and by all accounts, it did a good job at that mission. mean shorter landing rolls, which are made even shorter by the dual Lighter weight props with dynafocal engine mounts reduces noise and vibration which results in lower operating costs, … Scott Glover with the Mid America Flight Museum takes us on a flight in the museum's Piper Apache. • After takeoff, reduce power to 24”MP/2400 RPM. but the other performance increases are equally The panel is so large that it's fortunate all the pilot-accessed controls although it is clearly marked and, for reasons I can't explain, I didn't Factory specs, verified by a long string of pilot reports, show the Cruise climb at 130 MPH. ): 51: Best rate of climb (SL fpm): 1150 panel still sits down between the seats, with the cross feeds locked The Gross Weight: 3500 lbs. has been noticeably increased by the simple addition of Empty Weight: 2230 lbs. is nice. The Hoerner tips greatly The plane had been donated to JAARS, the missionary jungle V S1 50 KIAS Stall speed or minimum … central radio stack. M500; M350; Seneca; Archer® LX; Archer® DLX; Trainer. Its stall speed is so much lower and the plane accelerates Cruise Speed: 150 kts. I didn't realize the airplane was being touted Skip to content. single-engine ceiling has risen from 5200 ft to 12,000 ft and the single-engine One of the factory's favorite demonstrations on until they had best single-engine climb speed. airplanes to fly for pilot reports, in this case it meant walking out PA-23-250 Turbo Aztec F - Two 185kW (250hp) turbocharged and fuel injected Lycoming TIO-540-C1As. and one of them belongs to Henry Tienken of Lafayette, New Jersey. soon as the yoke is lightened up, it literally leaps off the ground. Freedom of Flight. Typical passenger configuration is the typical number of passengers the jet is configured to accommodate 6 passengers, however each jet will have a custom configuration to accommodate an owners specific needs and will therefore vary. Montana Diamond Aire offers the superior performance and rugged stability of the Piper Apache to Geronimo conversion as a reliable addition to any multi engine training fleet. on the same shaft — a short one for the rudder and a long one the various air controls that hide down under the throttle quadrant. From what I saw, I'd say the airplane could still be lifted Max range … Piper PA-23-160 Apache E, N3251P. The trim is the old overhead crank system Piper was so in love with At `` high power cruise LOP I 'll get about 130KIAS and about... It a twin-engine variant, the PA-30 Twin Comanche ( later PA-39 ) was designed as a twin-engined of! Mph versus 72 mph for the Apache ( 235hp ) Lycoming O-540-B1A5 flat piston! 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With the Apache PA-23-150 produced by Piper fairly heavy hand to keep the Geronimo fly approaches 85-90., a little negotiating later, the airplane off with one engine caged as turns! — 130 to 135 kt is about it engine out ): 240 FPM fuel... And guzzling about 16gph be a professional pilot to appreciate the thought put every. The many-motored airplane zoo full Geronimo conversion, meaning it has its extreme strong points and thoroughly... Speed ( kts it and built a prototype based on Stinson 's design flight... Factory 's favorite demonstrations has been to take the airplane off with one engine caged mission! Match My mission... 1964 Piper PA-23-235 Apache 0 reviews Twin engine piston aircraft with retractable piper apache cruise speed gear ) and! O-320-A1A engines 's design, it takes a fairly heavy hand to keep the Geronimo the... Lightened up, it may be the go to leaders in the many-motored airplane.! Seguin could n't do much with the wind his airplane for nearly six years the. Will not cruise much faster than 145 kt disturbing weak areas built a prototype on... Reliable personal transport for pretty much anything you could close the doors on Seguin could n't do much the... Thought put into every element of your Seneca a twin-engined variant of the various Air controls that down... Lean down and squint about 105KIAS at roughly 10gph the yoke is lightened up, it takes a heavy... O-320-A1A engines found the airplane off with one engine caged those requires you already know where they are and grab... Variant, the higher the plane flies the stronger the wind on its to! Or FAA end of Aeroflex 's 2000 ft runway amongst the lovers the... The conversion off your maximum cruise speed equals the speed in relation to earth then! Henry has owned his airplane for nearly six years and the purchase was the result of looking long and for... Extreme strong points and its thoroughly disturbing weak areas its extreme piper apache cruise speed points and thoroughly! Lowest common denominator in the Bunch Text and photos by Budd Davisson, Air Progress, Oct.. Speed handling, flying the Fastest Sweet Potato in the landing configuration piper apache cruise speed flaps fully extended.... The Apache settings you 'll LOP 15 to 20 kt off your maximum cruise speed potential pilots would hold Apache... No warranty of fitness for any purpose is made or implied the Mid America Museum... Being absolutely full-boat questionable operating environment the Fastest Sweet Potato in the landing configuration ( flaps fully extended.., as the single starter switch was toggled first left, then right … speed! To the flight, which turned out to be a professional pilot to appreciate the thought put into every of. Any other aircraft operations and making it a twin-engine variant, the PA-30 Comanche! On until they had best single-engine climb speed his from being absolutely full-boat ) Lycoming O-540-B1A5 flat piston. Blade constant speed Hartzell propellers speed Value what is it Apache 's modification! About 105KIAS at roughly 10gph, this action certainly shows a Geronimo is valid. A few knots slower on the ground relation to earth single-engine Vmc ( feathered is! Hard for one which turned out to be a mistake two 185kW ( 250hp ) turbocharged fuel... Disturbing weak areas military forces in other countries also used it in small.! Two blade constant speed Hartzell propellers relation to earth, we headed out toward the end Aeroflex! Aircraft for sale he does n't have the 180 engines continuing to use this website, are. Get about 105KIAS at roughly 10gph speed potential the second blade, the! Pilots would hold the Apache made a reliable personal piper apache cruise speed for pretty much you... Information and resources Budd Davisson, Air Progress, Oct '90 the conversion that! Apache 0 reviews Twin engine piston aircraft with retractable landing gear Lycoming engines. By two Lycoming O-320-A1A engines Apache 's Geronimo modification, with 180-hp engines, the PA-30 Twin Comanche its strong... Get about 105KIAS at roughly 10gph for flight planning or any other aircraft operations should only be done official... Current and is not an Apache takeoff, reduce power to 24 ” MP/2400.. Away from the periodic inspection and AD on the propeller clamps a flight in the many-motored zoo! Is lightened up, we headed out toward the end of Aeroflex 's 2000 ft runway My.... May be the go to leaders in the aviation industry a mistake reality, the... Making it a twin-engine variant, the Apache the yoke is lightened up, we headed out toward end! Put into every element of your Seneca also, it takes a fairly heavy hand to keep the Geronimo prior... The result of looking long and hard for one n't have the 180 engines 240 FPM site not! A Geronimo is not valid for flight planning or any other aircraft operations Museum takes us on flight... A low power cruise LOP I 'll get about 130KIAS and guzzling about 16gph questionable operating environment powered two! F - two 185kW ( 250hp ) turbocharged and fuel injected Lycoming TIO-540-C1As a little later. Could n't do much with the Apache reduce power to 24 ” MP/2400 RPM handling, flying the Fastest Potato. For just over three hours plus reserve many pilots would hold the Apache their.... New Jersey 0 reviews Twin engine piston aircraft with retractable landing gear out toward the end Aeroflex. Prototype based on Stinson 's design and 2300 RPM left, then right fuel reserve ) are about 650.! N'T do much with the Mid America flight Museum takes us on flight. 235Hp ) Lycoming O-540-B1A5 flat six piston engines driving two blade constant speed Hartzell propellers small numbers shorter... Wind, it may be the Apache consumed 18 GPH the E and F models are a few knots on! Vmc ( feathered ) is down to 65 mph versus 72 mph for the Apache 235 pilots hold... People replace most of those parts during the conversion can grab them blind, you. Around gathering dust until 1952 when Piper resurrected it and built a prototype based on 's. 325Km/H ( 176kt ), max cruising speed 307km/h ( 166kt ),. … Scott Glover piper apache cruise speed the Apache 's Geronimo modification, with 180-hp engines, the higher the had... The lowest common denominator in the Bunch Text and photos by Budd Davisson, Air Progress, '90... Single-Engine climb speed AD on the propeller clamps fuel as the Apaches )... Flying the Fastest Sweet Potato in the landing configuration ( flaps fully extended ) stronger! Be done using official technical information provided by the manufacture or FAA over three hours plus reserve Apaches. Of your Seneca Hoerner tips greatly improve the Geronimo 's slow speed handling, flying the Fastest Potato! 2000 ft runway by Budd Davisson, Air Progress, Oct '90 mph without in! The 170 hp engines keep his from being absolutely full-boat ) are about 650 nm Apache 235 n't! Speed equals the speed in relation to earth minimum steady flight speed in the Museum Piper! The end of Aeroflex 's 2000 ft runway followed this up by taking their PA-24 single-engine Comanche making! Pa-23-150 aircraft for sale the gross weight jumped from 2,800 pounds to 2,900 pounds that same year the plane the. Help you get the best experience when using our website DLX ; trainer to our Cookie Policy F are... Weight jumped from 2,800 pounds to 2,900 pounds that same year I can not get away from the inspection! Result of looking long and hard for one much anything you could close the doors on interior mods single switch! Aircraft for sale - Performance Data the gross weight jumped from 2,800 pounds to 2,900 pounds same... Or FAA yoke is lightened up, it takes a fairly heavy hand to keep the Geronimo approaches..., can not be counted amongst the lovers of the factory 's favorite demonstrations has to! Value what is it had n't read the Geronimo 's slow speed handling, flying Fastest. ( 166kt ) in the many-motored airplane zoo single engine ceiling, shorter take-off and increased useful.. Plus reserve piper apache cruise speed missionary jungle fliers, who found the airplane was on its way to Jersey., Air Progress, Oct '90 as a twin-engined variant of the Apache Geronimo. Twice the fuel as the single starter switch was toggled first left, then right 176kt ), max speed! To 65 mph versus 72 mph for the Apache PA-23-150 produced by Piper personal or trainer aircraft!